The following is a copy of something I recently posted on ROOV.com. I place it here for feedback and to encourage you to sign-up for ROOV if it is in your city.
I think open-theism is an example of theology done wrong. I also think when anti-open-theism is theology done wrong. Basically the question comes down to how much God knows. Open theist argue that our modern concept of omnipotence (God knows everything in everytime at everytime completely) is a Platonic idea, not a Christian/Biblical one. So putting Platonic ideas aside we can look solely at the Bible. In Scripture we see tension. Sometimes we see God appear to be surprised or even negotiate with man. Other places we see God know very exact details of the distant future. Closed-theist (those arguing against open-theism) basically argue that the passages about God being surprised are to be taken metaphorically, which is convenient for their argument. Open-theist argue that God knowing future details is merely evidence of His knowledge of the realm of possibilities, which is their idea not the Bible's.
The real problem with open theism is that it does little to solve the problem of evil, which is supposedly the whole reason for the idea in the first place. Saying God doesn't know (or at least not completely) doesn't let God off the hook. For example, much evil is evident to man. I think any concept of God must allow that He at least knows as much as man. But God still doesn't act to rectify the evil that I see. The problem of evil does not arise because God knows all, it arises because how can God be good and choose not to respond to evil.
In reality, the problem of evil is a problem with man not with God. It our logic that is flawed. It is us who can't understand how a good God with the power to do rectify evil does not do it. We say that God must be unjust, but we do not know Justice. God is Just and His actions are justice.
The other extreme is equally flawed. If we believe in a God who has written the script to the world, so that we should just ignore our own responsibilities then we are in error. If we believe that God cannot change His mind, therefore we should not pray that He does, we are in error. We can plead our case to God, knowing that He is just.
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4 comments:
Hey Lee, can we agree on two points?
1) "agency" is not possible in a determined all-of-everything
2) an all-of-everything cannot contain within itself a perfect representation of itself.
So, we can have a God only if that God floats in a non-deterministic all-of-everything, and that this God doesn't have complete knowledge of the all of everything in which he floats. However, he can have complete knowledge of our universe, which also floats in this larger space. Not only does this model allow God to exist, it also allows him complete knowledge of our own system. Now, WE, within the universe God mandates, are not agents--our paths are set by virtue of God knowing everything about this universe we inhabit. But he can always change what he knows (edit the script).
-Ryan
Hey Ryan (I'm not exactly sure which Ryan this is, Kluzak perhaps)...
I'm not sure I fully grasp exactly what you are getting at, but what it seems like you are saying that God exists within a larger space and our universe exists within the space that God occupies. God knows everything of our universe since He occupies that space (and more). This knowledge is deterministic, but God is a free agent because He can move (which presumably effects outcomes) within the larger space.
I guess it still comes down to the age-old issue of whether knowledge (or perhaps better, foreknowledge) is deterministic. It is tempting to say yes, but I think it is simply outside of our knowledge and human experience...
Well, I'm not saying that this IS so, but this scenario gives God agency and omniscience, and we don't have free will. If we existed in the same space, then God can have agency, limited (though I'd say quite substantial) knowledge, and we can have free will.
I have yet to find a way to give God full agency, full omniscience, and also free-will to mankind.
"Outside of our human knowledge and experience" might be true of the power that can state what goes in position 3.
1) If God knows it, it is true.
2) God knows the choice C0 through CN that a person is going to make
3)???
4) Therefore, God's knowledge of a set of choices does not predetermine those choices.
-Kluzak
Kluzak,
It is good to hear from you.
"I have yet to find a way to give God full agency, full omniscience, and also free-will to mankind."
I think my idea is that it is not up to us to 'find a way' we are to accept what is true and live in the tension it presents.
I believe the following are true:
- God knows everything
- God can do anything
- There is evil in the world
- God is good and just
- I am responsible for my actions and attitudes.
How all these things can be true at once is beyond me. There certainly is tension here. But the truth is in the tension. The conflict between an all-powerful all-knowing good God and evil is the story of Scripture. We live in this tension. This tension is sin (evil in the presence of God).
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